Wednesday, October 06, 2004
Abortion on demand : My thoughts
Abortion on demand is being able to get an abortion like a snickers bar as a member of my political listserv pointed out. And yes its that easy, you walk into clinic drop your cash wait on line and 1/2 hour later the life you created is gone. Something that was living is now not, whether you think of it as killing a bug, a human or a cat it is more than a hair cut.
To be clear it is easier to get an abortion than it is to get antibiotics. With antibiotics you have to go to doctor, the doctor can then refuse you anti-biotics if she thinks they are not warranted. So basically its easier to kill off a potential human easier than killing off bacteria that are infesting your body.
Everyone says that abortions are not done lightly but if you look at the required procedures it does seem to be taken very lightly.
Abortions should not be done lightly, Even if only for the mothers mental health. I think there should be limitations. At a minimum consultation with a doctor should be required. At minimum there should be a 2 day waiting period between consultation and procedure. At minimum there should be follow up after the procedure to make sure the women is using birth control in the future. At the minimum as the fetus reaches point closer to viability there should be some procedures to protect that life. Obviously the baby's life is worth less than the mothers, but it shouldn't be worthless.
There is also the huge issue of father rights/ responsibilities. In our society a man can be held legally responsible for any child that a mother says he is the father of. (paternity is assumed and has to be disproved by the father if not married to the mother, if the man is not the father but was married I am not sure if there is anyway to remove the legal burden) Our society has chosen to put this responsibility on men, But it has removed the rights such as being informed if your wife is pregnant or is having an abortion. As a parent you have responsibility for your 14 year old daughter, you will be called if they skip school or get a broken leg but you wont be informed if they are pregnant and getting an abortion. Its insane. Its wrong.
No doubt I am advocating a much more complicated system, but its a life and death issue and I think it warrants a more robust system that protects the rights of everyone involved but also cares for those affected by these pregnancies.
Abortion on demand is being able to get an abortion like a snickers bar as a member of my political listserv pointed out. And yes its that easy, you walk into clinic drop your cash wait on line and 1/2 hour later the life you created is gone. Something that was living is now not, whether you think of it as killing a bug, a human or a cat it is more than a hair cut.
To be clear it is easier to get an abortion than it is to get antibiotics. With antibiotics you have to go to doctor, the doctor can then refuse you anti-biotics if she thinks they are not warranted. So basically its easier to kill off a potential human easier than killing off bacteria that are infesting your body.
Everyone says that abortions are not done lightly but if you look at the required procedures it does seem to be taken very lightly.
Abortions should not be done lightly, Even if only for the mothers mental health. I think there should be limitations. At a minimum consultation with a doctor should be required. At minimum there should be a 2 day waiting period between consultation and procedure. At minimum there should be follow up after the procedure to make sure the women is using birth control in the future. At the minimum as the fetus reaches point closer to viability there should be some procedures to protect that life. Obviously the baby's life is worth less than the mothers, but it shouldn't be worthless.
There is also the huge issue of father rights/ responsibilities. In our society a man can be held legally responsible for any child that a mother says he is the father of. (paternity is assumed and has to be disproved by the father if not married to the mother, if the man is not the father but was married I am not sure if there is anyway to remove the legal burden) Our society has chosen to put this responsibility on men, But it has removed the rights such as being informed if your wife is pregnant or is having an abortion. As a parent you have responsibility for your 14 year old daughter, you will be called if they skip school or get a broken leg but you wont be informed if they are pregnant and getting an abortion. Its insane. Its wrong.
No doubt I am advocating a much more complicated system, but its a life and death issue and I think it warrants a more robust system that protects the rights of everyone involved but also cares for those affected by these pregnancies.
Comments:
I am not an abortion advocate but I must ask, how do you juxtapose your arguement against abortion with your arguement against social programs to help mothers that are not financially equiped to take care of a child.
Yes, she knew this before she had sex and was impregnated, but we are beyound that now. The reality in your face is you have a young woman with little education or not yet out of school pregnant and would like to get an abortion, you would prevent her from having one and you you would also end most if not all social programs set up to help her and her child.
Juxtapose your two seemingly contradictory positions.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 4:47 pm | #
God love you for your insight! I had a dear friend years ago who was going through a difficult time in her life (her husband was fighting a brain tumor) and she went into labor at 5 months (3rd trimester). The doctors, thinking the "fetus was not viable", pulled him by his arm from her womb. Ronnie graduated college a few years ago, but still has a problem with his arm from the torn ligaments at birth! At least they didn't suck out his brain first!
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 4:48 pm | #
Faheem, it's called "adoption".
Dag out!
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 4:49 pm | #
"Faheem, it's called "adoption".
Yea, I knew that was coming. There are hundreds of thousands of children from new borns to young adults in the system that has not been adopted nor will they be adopted. Thus even if the mother give up the child as you can do here in California, the child still becomes a government supported child with as much a chance of getting adopted as being left in the system. Would it not be better to give the government support to the parent to raise the child versus putting them in a system that has no love for them?
Furthermore, I was asking that the to seeming contradictory positions held by most conservatives and parroted by the Negro-Cons be juxtapose as to make sense of them.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 5:37 pm | #
Faheem, the libs make it so horribly difficult to adopt that it's proof in and of itself. They do NOT WANT options, just abortion!
Sorry Scott, for the OT.
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 6:23 pm | #
How do the "libs" make it difficult to adopt?
And you still have not made sens of the contradictory stance I have refered to, you are simply looking for a way out. Even if adoption was easy to accomplish, this still would not remove the inherent contradiction in opposing abortion and opposing social programs to help mothers that could not get an abortion. Simply put, the elitist minded conservatives love to talk about poor people with children that need assistance to take care of their children but the elite simpletons also would not allow the young woman to get an abortion.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 6:54 pm | #
Faheem have you seem me advocate making abortions illegal ? Have you seem me advocate removing social safety net ?
No you haven't.
One of the main points of the http://www.conservativebrotherhood.org/ is that we have different views. Please don't ascribe to me positions I have not taken.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that we all think the same way. Yes we have similarities but we have many differences.
You may believe that the best way for people to succeed is to have a signular group think, we think a market of ideas is the best way to improve the world.
Sarah | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 10:19 pm | #
Sarah, I have no idea who you are or what you are about. I speak to the general rule; I do not speak in absolutism, if what I said does not apply to you, there is no need for you to respond. You may be one of a few conservatives that do not support a ban on abortion, there are some conservatives that support affirmative action, but the vast majority of negro-cons parrot the the beliefs of their white counterpart and the vast majority of you are for banning abortion, ending all social programs to help young parents and some of you are even against abortion when a woman is raped.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 10:35 pm | #
On the issue of me believing in a singular group thinking is best and you proclaiming that you believe in a market of ideas; that sound good but we are not talking about your portfolio. We are talking about empowering black men and women and having those who committed crimes against humanity admit their crimes and then HELP in the repair of the damage stemming from their brutal inhumane acts.
I have no problem with Black men and women that seek to empower Black folk by means that I have not entertained, however you Negro-Cons do nothing more than adopt the platform and ideologies of white folk and act as if you all have had an epiphany. There is little difference between the Negro-Con and their white cohort for the most part. That market of ideas of yours only seek to capitulate to the whims of those who have been on the wrong side of race relations since the inception of this nation and now we suppose to believe they are on the right side of race relations in this nation?
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 11:12 pm | #
Sorry about tech problem: the post which included the link
http://www.conservativebrotherhood.org/
is mine. Scott the owner of this blog
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.07.04 - 7:57 am | #
Faheem may not know it, but in my state (MN) it is most difficult for a white family to adopt a black child.
Actually - adopting PERIOD is quite difficult - I know! My husband and I went through the adoption process about 15 years ago. Incredible red tape...huge amounts of study to see if you are adequate (or should I say super?) parents - and many, many rules that biological parents never, ever, ever have to consider.
I would think that the state would want children without parents to be adopted by loving parents, irrespective of anyone's race.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.07.04 - 7:17 pm | #
He also doesn't understand that the majority of the children in the system are NOT up for adoption. They are looking for foster parents which is a temporary relationship.
Its sad that it is cheaper and easier for an American to go to CHINA to adopt a child than to do it in America.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.07.04 - 9:20 pm | #
That isn't even terrifically easy, Scott. I know, because we looked into it.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.07.04 - 10:49 pm | #
I think it should be difficult for white folk to adopt a Black child. A Black child in the system already does not need the head game or complications that come with being part of a white family that try to raise the child as a white child.
Furthermore it was not me who made adoption an issue, I said remove all barriers and you still have the contradictory stance of conservative that they oppose abortion and oppose government programs to help mothers with their children. No one has still shown how the adoption issues is a lib issue.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 2:19 am | #
Great you are one of the idiots that thinks its better for black children to remain in institutions instead of being in a loving home, with loving parents.
And you wonder why the system is so fucked.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 10:14 am | #
Yup, I am one of those idiots who think it should be difficult for white folk to adopt Black children. Interersting enough studies have shown that Black folk have a harder time adoptiong Black children than white folk.
However, since you have not answered my original question and none of those who visit your site have either says to me you have no answer. I this talk about abortion coming from you is just you running your mouth and towing your party line.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 10:23 am | #
Conservatives don't believe in removing charity. They believe in ecouraging responsibility.
To have a child on your own without a mate, without a steady source of income is irresponsible.
If you can accept that point I can them move on and explain to you the standard conservative point of view.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 11:55 am | #
I am not talking about removing charity, that is your word not mine. I am speaking to the conservative movement to remove all social programs that help poor men and women.
I stated in one of my earlier post that we are beyound the whole irresponsible aspect of this discussion and we are now dealing with the reality in our face that a young woman is pregnant and because she is aware that she is poor, the child father wil be absent and she has no source of income, she want to get an abortion. You conservatives would deny her that and deny her the social programs to help her take care of her child. Make sense out of that.
With that said I accept your point, now explain your foolish beliefs, if you can.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 5:09 pm | #
My cousin adopted a newborn black baby about 4 years ago: Brandon. (I oughta post some cute pics at my blog.)
My cousin has never married, and about 3 or 4 years prior to adopting Brandon, her beloved younger brother died of a brain tumor. Of course, my cousin Carol and her mom Rosalie were stunned with grief.
A black family came to their synogogue, and said that they were looking for a Jewish family to raise their soon-to-be-born baby. My cousin decided SHE wanted to be the mom - they decided they wanted HER to be the mom, too - and so it came to be.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 7:08 pm | #
Baby Brandon turned a light on inside my cousin and my aunt that I thought was extinguished forever. He is the center of BOTH of their lives now. (My cousin works as an optomitrist, so my aunt helps lots with his care.)
My aunt and her ("new" husband of 20 years) have "his" grandchildren, too - and Brandon happily plays with them.
NO ONE can tell me that Brandon would have been better off in an institution - nor that Brandon AND his adopted family are not delighted with their circumstances.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 7:08 pm | #
Well thats good for them, they may have been just as happy had they received a puppy.
Tell me about Brandon when he gets older and wether or not he have an affinity to white and jewish culture versus Black culture. Tell me how he will be taught his history and will he be made to worship a white God. Brandon will be a screwed up kid more than likely but we can pray he turn out to be himself versus a black child trained and made into a little white kid. Based on your attitude and knowledge of Black people from what I have seen Peg, Brandon is in trouble.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 7:31 pm | #
Where I come from, all races share the same God.
And my cousin already had pets. Brandon is her child - and loved by everyone in the extended family.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.09.04 - 12:09 am | #
Faheem is an out of touch racist. Faheem, white people and black people are far more similar than you think. Especially white and black Americans.
andursonne | Email | 10.09.04 - 2:26 pm | #
I am aware that Black folk in America have many things in common with white folk in America and none of our similarities have anything to do with this discussion. If any of what I have said in this thread makes you see me as a racist, then I will wear that title with honor. I am still waiting for any Negro Conservative or white conservative to answer my question. It appear as if I will be waiting a long time.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.10.04 - 9:54 pm | #
I don't know why anyone would waste their time discussing anything with Faheem. Leave him to his outdated, hysterical, irrational, and immoral opinions and move on. Black conservatives, whites or anybody else don't have to answer to the likes of him. Lost cause.
Chance | Email | 10.30.04 - 7:52 am | #
Post a Comment
Yes, she knew this before she had sex and was impregnated, but we are beyound that now. The reality in your face is you have a young woman with little education or not yet out of school pregnant and would like to get an abortion, you would prevent her from having one and you you would also end most if not all social programs set up to help her and her child.
Juxtapose your two seemingly contradictory positions.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 4:47 pm | #
God love you for your insight! I had a dear friend years ago who was going through a difficult time in her life (her husband was fighting a brain tumor) and she went into labor at 5 months (3rd trimester). The doctors, thinking the "fetus was not viable", pulled him by his arm from her womb. Ronnie graduated college a few years ago, but still has a problem with his arm from the torn ligaments at birth! At least they didn't suck out his brain first!
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 4:48 pm | #
Faheem, it's called "adoption".
Dag out!
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 4:49 pm | #
"Faheem, it's called "adoption".
Yea, I knew that was coming. There are hundreds of thousands of children from new borns to young adults in the system that has not been adopted nor will they be adopted. Thus even if the mother give up the child as you can do here in California, the child still becomes a government supported child with as much a chance of getting adopted as being left in the system. Would it not be better to give the government support to the parent to raise the child versus putting them in a system that has no love for them?
Furthermore, I was asking that the to seeming contradictory positions held by most conservatives and parroted by the Negro-Cons be juxtapose as to make sense of them.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 5:37 pm | #
Faheem, the libs make it so horribly difficult to adopt that it's proof in and of itself. They do NOT WANT options, just abortion!
Sorry Scott, for the OT.
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 6:23 pm | #
How do the "libs" make it difficult to adopt?
And you still have not made sens of the contradictory stance I have refered to, you are simply looking for a way out. Even if adoption was easy to accomplish, this still would not remove the inherent contradiction in opposing abortion and opposing social programs to help mothers that could not get an abortion. Simply put, the elitist minded conservatives love to talk about poor people with children that need assistance to take care of their children but the elite simpletons also would not allow the young woman to get an abortion.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 6:54 pm | #
Faheem have you seem me advocate making abortions illegal ? Have you seem me advocate removing social safety net ?
No you haven't.
One of the main points of the http://www.conservativebrotherhood.org/ is that we have different views. Please don't ascribe to me positions I have not taken.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that we all think the same way. Yes we have similarities but we have many differences.
You may believe that the best way for people to succeed is to have a signular group think, we think a market of ideas is the best way to improve the world.
Sarah | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 10:19 pm | #
Sarah, I have no idea who you are or what you are about. I speak to the general rule; I do not speak in absolutism, if what I said does not apply to you, there is no need for you to respond. You may be one of a few conservatives that do not support a ban on abortion, there are some conservatives that support affirmative action, but the vast majority of negro-cons parrot the the beliefs of their white counterpart and the vast majority of you are for banning abortion, ending all social programs to help young parents and some of you are even against abortion when a woman is raped.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 10:35 pm | #
On the issue of me believing in a singular group thinking is best and you proclaiming that you believe in a market of ideas; that sound good but we are not talking about your portfolio. We are talking about empowering black men and women and having those who committed crimes against humanity admit their crimes and then HELP in the repair of the damage stemming from their brutal inhumane acts.
I have no problem with Black men and women that seek to empower Black folk by means that I have not entertained, however you Negro-Cons do nothing more than adopt the platform and ideologies of white folk and act as if you all have had an epiphany. There is little difference between the Negro-Con and their white cohort for the most part. That market of ideas of yours only seek to capitulate to the whims of those who have been on the wrong side of race relations since the inception of this nation and now we suppose to believe they are on the right side of race relations in this nation?
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 11:12 pm | #
Sorry about tech problem: the post which included the link
http://www.conservativebrotherhood.org/
is mine. Scott the owner of this blog
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.07.04 - 7:57 am | #
Faheem may not know it, but in my state (MN) it is most difficult for a white family to adopt a black child.
Actually - adopting PERIOD is quite difficult - I know! My husband and I went through the adoption process about 15 years ago. Incredible red tape...huge amounts of study to see if you are adequate (or should I say super?) parents - and many, many rules that biological parents never, ever, ever have to consider.
I would think that the state would want children without parents to be adopted by loving parents, irrespective of anyone's race.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.07.04 - 7:17 pm | #
He also doesn't understand that the majority of the children in the system are NOT up for adoption. They are looking for foster parents which is a temporary relationship.
Its sad that it is cheaper and easier for an American to go to CHINA to adopt a child than to do it in America.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.07.04 - 9:20 pm | #
That isn't even terrifically easy, Scott. I know, because we looked into it.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.07.04 - 10:49 pm | #
I think it should be difficult for white folk to adopt a Black child. A Black child in the system already does not need the head game or complications that come with being part of a white family that try to raise the child as a white child.
Furthermore it was not me who made adoption an issue, I said remove all barriers and you still have the contradictory stance of conservative that they oppose abortion and oppose government programs to help mothers with their children. No one has still shown how the adoption issues is a lib issue.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 2:19 am | #
Great you are one of the idiots that thinks its better for black children to remain in institutions instead of being in a loving home, with loving parents.
And you wonder why the system is so fucked.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 10:14 am | #
Yup, I am one of those idiots who think it should be difficult for white folk to adopt Black children. Interersting enough studies have shown that Black folk have a harder time adoptiong Black children than white folk.
However, since you have not answered my original question and none of those who visit your site have either says to me you have no answer. I this talk about abortion coming from you is just you running your mouth and towing your party line.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 10:23 am | #
Conservatives don't believe in removing charity. They believe in ecouraging responsibility.
To have a child on your own without a mate, without a steady source of income is irresponsible.
If you can accept that point I can them move on and explain to you the standard conservative point of view.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 11:55 am | #
I am not talking about removing charity, that is your word not mine. I am speaking to the conservative movement to remove all social programs that help poor men and women.
I stated in one of my earlier post that we are beyound the whole irresponsible aspect of this discussion and we are now dealing with the reality in our face that a young woman is pregnant and because she is aware that she is poor, the child father wil be absent and she has no source of income, she want to get an abortion. You conservatives would deny her that and deny her the social programs to help her take care of her child. Make sense out of that.
With that said I accept your point, now explain your foolish beliefs, if you can.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 5:09 pm | #
My cousin adopted a newborn black baby about 4 years ago: Brandon. (I oughta post some cute pics at my blog.)
My cousin has never married, and about 3 or 4 years prior to adopting Brandon, her beloved younger brother died of a brain tumor. Of course, my cousin Carol and her mom Rosalie were stunned with grief.
A black family came to their synogogue, and said that they were looking for a Jewish family to raise their soon-to-be-born baby. My cousin decided SHE wanted to be the mom - they decided they wanted HER to be the mom, too - and so it came to be.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 7:08 pm | #
Baby Brandon turned a light on inside my cousin and my aunt that I thought was extinguished forever. He is the center of BOTH of their lives now. (My cousin works as an optomitrist, so my aunt helps lots with his care.)
My aunt and her ("new" husband of 20 years) have "his" grandchildren, too - and Brandon happily plays with them.
NO ONE can tell me that Brandon would have been better off in an institution - nor that Brandon AND his adopted family are not delighted with their circumstances.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 7:08 pm | #
Well thats good for them, they may have been just as happy had they received a puppy.
Tell me about Brandon when he gets older and wether or not he have an affinity to white and jewish culture versus Black culture. Tell me how he will be taught his history and will he be made to worship a white God. Brandon will be a screwed up kid more than likely but we can pray he turn out to be himself versus a black child trained and made into a little white kid. Based on your attitude and knowledge of Black people from what I have seen Peg, Brandon is in trouble.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.08.04 - 7:31 pm | #
Where I come from, all races share the same God.
And my cousin already had pets. Brandon is her child - and loved by everyone in the extended family.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.09.04 - 12:09 am | #
Faheem is an out of touch racist. Faheem, white people and black people are far more similar than you think. Especially white and black Americans.
andursonne | Email | 10.09.04 - 2:26 pm | #
I am aware that Black folk in America have many things in common with white folk in America and none of our similarities have anything to do with this discussion. If any of what I have said in this thread makes you see me as a racist, then I will wear that title with honor. I am still waiting for any Negro Conservative or white conservative to answer my question. It appear as if I will be waiting a long time.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.10.04 - 9:54 pm | #
I don't know why anyone would waste their time discussing anything with Faheem. Leave him to his outdated, hysterical, irrational, and immoral opinions and move on. Black conservatives, whites or anybody else don't have to answer to the likes of him. Lost cause.
Chance | Email | 10.30.04 - 7:52 am | #
# posted by 
: December 30, 2004 at 11:04 PM
: December 30, 2004 at 11:04 PM
