Saturday, October 16, 2004
Why I turned Conservative
Just a few minutes ago I finally figured it out. I was replying to another strange post over at black introspection and I finally realized why I had finally lost patience with the traditional black leadership and the liberal mindset. When I started this blog with its obviously provocative name I was just pissed off at the fact that in all the talk of swing voters and handouts to important groups for their votes that blacks were ignored by both the democrats and the republicans.
But over the months of discussion I came to realize that I have always been conservative. I have always believed in hard work and personal responsibility. And that is the core of the black conservatism. We learned it from out fathers and mothers, works twice as hard because racism exist, keep your nose clean because the criminal justice system can't get justice for the black man, suck it up when you work harder and get less than your white co-workers, life is hard but you have everything you need to succeed inside you.
We don't reject the civil rights movement or its successes, we reject the ignorant view that expects the government to fix our problem. We reject the mentality that allows our young people to blame their failures on racism when they have more and more opportunities every year. We also reject that the alliances that helped us achieve the victories in the 1960's are going to help up achieve the victories we need in the 21st century.
Just a few minutes ago I finally figured it out. I was replying to another strange post over at black introspection and I finally realized why I had finally lost patience with the traditional black leadership and the liberal mindset. When I started this blog with its obviously provocative name I was just pissed off at the fact that in all the talk of swing voters and handouts to important groups for their votes that blacks were ignored by both the democrats and the republicans.
But over the months of discussion I came to realize that I have always been conservative. I have always believed in hard work and personal responsibility. And that is the core of the black conservatism. We learned it from out fathers and mothers, works twice as hard because racism exist, keep your nose clean because the criminal justice system can't get justice for the black man, suck it up when you work harder and get less than your white co-workers, life is hard but you have everything you need to succeed inside you.
We don't reject the civil rights movement or its successes, we reject the ignorant view that expects the government to fix our problem. We reject the mentality that allows our young people to blame their failures on racism when they have more and more opportunities every year. We also reject that the alliances that helped us achieve the victories in the 1960's are going to help up achieve the victories we need in the 21st century.
Comments:
Well…when one looks at children and not adults, children are often not in a position to be responsible for putting food on the table, getting health care, going to good schools ect. By trying to live by the conservative philosophy of small government and personal responsibility for adults, the children end up suffering, when the conservatives try to force or hold the parents responsible. The thing is that you cannot get to the children without going through the adults, who may or may not have been responsible. The children being the future, these abdicating on the part of the conservatives by constricting social aid and programs backfires in the long run.
I guess the ultimate question for me is that if one was in the situation where they could provide aid and food to women and children who are starving, but in doing so likely create some enable dependencies…what would you do? Many people like to condemn Roosevelt’s social crusade because of the dependencies it created. However, the programs saved many from suffering hunger and death as well. What the unwise fail to understand about existence is that all actions produce tradeoffs. Politics is simply a pendulum swing between opposite cookie cutter approaches, each have benefits and detriments…but both being needed. In order for government to really work effectively, it must be able to be tailored to the specific needs of individuals, which in and of itself would be much more expensive than the cookie cutter approach of one size fits all.
I guess the ultimate question for me is that if one was in the situation where they could provide aid and food to women and children who are starving, but in doing so likely create some enable dependencies…what would you do? Many people like to condemn Roosevelt’s social crusade because of the dependencies it created. However, the programs saved many from suffering hunger and death as well. What the unwise fail to understand about existence is that all actions produce tradeoffs. Politics is simply a pendulum swing between opposite cookie cutter approaches, each have benefits and detriments…but both being needed. In order for government to really work effectively, it must be able to be tailored to the specific needs of individuals, which in and of itself would be much more expensive than the cookie cutter approach of one size fits all.
The thing is Scott, that nearly all black people parents, of my generation at least, taught them those things. That is not conservatism you idiot, that’s called a parents love and wisdom.
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 9:08 am | #
Until you walk in someone shoes, you cannot judge them in such a way that places yourself as being superior to them, by virtue of making different choices. I have never cheated on my wife in the two years that I have been married or the 8 years that we dated. However, for me to past judgment on Magic Johnson or Micheal Jordan is a false comparison. One, I would not be criticizing their behavior if I were guilty of it myself. That is a human proclivity to exalt oneself by virtue of juxtaposing their behavior with someone whose behavior is inferior, to make themselves look good in the comparison. Two, the temptations and opportunities for those two brothers to commit infidelity was to such a degree that I cannot say with certainty that I would not have succumbed either…because lord knows I love black women and would have them all if not constrained by love and morality.
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 9:08 am | #
Until you walk in someone shoes, you cannot judge them in such a way that places yourself as being superior to them, by virtue of making different choices. I have never cheated on my wife in the two years that I have been married or the 8 years that we dated. However, for me to past judgment on Magic Johnson or Micheal Jordan is a false comparison. One, I would not be criticizing their behavior if I were guilty of it myself. That is a human proclivity to exalt oneself by virtue of juxtaposing their behavior with someone whose behavior is inferior, to make themselves look good in the comparison. Two, the temptations and opportunities for those two brothers to commit infidelity was to such a degree that I cannot say with certainty that I would not have succumbed either…because lord knows I love black women and would have them all if not constrained by love and morality.
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 9:09 am | #
If you want a society that holds people responsible, you start by setting the example of a responsible government. It was the government that passed laws to keep black people oppressed for over 300 years. If the government cannot be responsible for its transgressions, than it is setting a bad example for the public to follow. Also, you cannot have a government that promotes preemptive violence against other nations, credibly locking up youths who engage in the same thing on our nations streets. The only difference being that there is an entity more powerful to hold them accountable and responsible, while no entity is strong enough to hold our nation responsible and accountable and it will not punish itself for its transgressions.
Dang this HaloScan...
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 9:10 am | #
You can also comment using the blogger commenting interface if you prefer it.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 10:13 am | #
I have always believed in hard work and personal responsibility. And that is the core of the black conservatism.
Now that's just plain silly.
By that standard, Sean Combs and Russell Simmons are Black conservatives.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 12:11 pm | #
Dark Star - you may be correct that for many, whether liberal or conservative, that hard work is valued and practiced. I think, however, that it is quite true that conservatives hold personal responsibility to be a key component of their world view far, far more than most liberals.
Conservatives think that a person ought to live their lives by a number of different principles - and that if they do, then their life rates to be good. But - no guarantees. Sometimes the best laid plans, yada yada yada. In those trying circumstances, the conservative tries to get help from friends, family, prior resources, or works even harder still.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 1:55 pm | #
The liberal, however, thinks that the government should be the ultimate safety net. Whether it's an issue of health care, housing, out of work - whatever - they believe that it is the role of the government to step in and make things right.
Highlighting personal responsibility is clearly a dividing line for conservatives and liberals. (Only other caveat - I don't see that race enters into this distinction at all.)
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 1:55 pm | #
"Sean Combs and Russell Simmons are Black conservatives." They are conservatives, Sean Combs even refuses to endorse one party over another.
If it wasn't for the 2000 stolen election I suspect they amoung others would have endored Bush but they make their money from the black community and they can't divert so far yet.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 2:56 pm | #
but they make their money from the black community and they can't divert so far yet.
OK, that's another silly comment.
1. They make more from whites than Blacks if you consider their music business as being the majority share of their income.
2. The "comedianne" Sommore(sp?) goes on Tom Joyner's show on a regular basis and lets it be known she is a Republican and that she supports Bush. Blacks still go to see her.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 4:37 pm | #
Scott, do you still believe the 2000 election was stolen?
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 5:12 pm | #
Yes I do.
But I got over it. One of the reasons I have abandoned the democratic party is the Gore first didn't stand up for us when he brought his case to the supreme court and the democrats didn't put any fights to protect our rights.
So I find the democrats as complict as the cops in harlem that refuse to do their jobs and arrest the drug dealers that sit on every corner.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 6:21 pm | #
I have abandoned the democratic party is the Gore first didn't stand up for us when he brought his case to the supreme court and the democrats didn't put any fights to protect our rights.
I'll agree some what with that.
Gore hosed Blacks when not one was considered for the VP spot. The CBC showed, again, they are spineless when they decided to speak up past the point of no return for Gore.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 9:51 pm | #
I read with some consternation the comments about the last Presidendial Election having been stolen. Although that is a well rehearsed Democratic canard, it is not at all true. Several very liberal newspaper organizations did very thorough investigations, including the New York Times, and found that the election was indeed not stolen. Also, though you won't read this in the liberal press, 24 of the 25 districts where there were problems with counting votes, they were run and controlled by the Democratic Party. So, in order to believe the election was stolen, you would have to believe that those Democrats in charge of the election process in those 25 districts conspired to throw the election to GW. Didn't happen. Anyway, I enjoy the discussions on your site, keep up the good work.
Jim | Email | 10.18.04 - 7:04 am | #
"suck it up when you work harder and get less than your white co-workers"
I may be showing some ignorance in this regard, and am willing to be enlightened, but I don't understand this comment, at least in light of my own experience. I worked in the public sector, law enforcement, and worked with a fair number of black men and women. We worked the same hours, did the same jobs, took the same risks, were promoted and retired on the same pensions; we received the same hourly pay and the same benefits....I guess I could go on, but you get the point. Before I worked in the public sector I worked at a large aircraft plant and the same applied there; prior to that, I was in the Air Force and the same applied there. I'm not looking to argue, but I guess I'm just not seeing something or your comment is more emotional than realistic... I couldn't agree more with the thrust of your post, the importance of persoanl responsibility. Help me understand what you meant by that comment.
Jim | Email | 10.18.04 - 7:20 am | #
Jim as you pointed out the democrats were not doing their job in making sure the election was fair and accurate.
There were signigficant reports of harasment in black neighboorhoods so people couldn't get to the voting boths, there were significant number who were mistakenly marked as felons. These are serious issues that have been blamed on the republicans thus the stolen election charge (in the black community). In the white community when they say stolen election they mean what you have discussed, which is the hanging chad nonsence and the bad ballots.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 9:23 am | #
Jim to clarify "suck it up when you work harder and get less than your white co-workers".
I have seen it so often its sad.
I had a detailed example but I felt that is was too private to relate. Lets just say in any situation where judgement is allowed (i.e. non union contracts where everything is spelled out) whenever a black person performs better its because the job was easier, never because they just did a better job.
If something goes wrong its always them, it couldn't have been bad instruction from their managers. But if its a black manager with white employee then its the managers fault.
Its pervasive like water to a fish.
If you don't accept it you just become the surly black employee.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 9:40 am | #
Did you ever know a few of them who just seemed pissed off all the time for no good reason. Or you might have seen the opposite the overly laid back employee who is doing their best to pretend the thousands of small slights don't matter.
One reason black employees are loyal is because it takes SO long to be accepted into any enviroment as an equal that its not worth changing to another environment for more pay where it will take you twice as long to get the respect you deserve.
When you are white competance is assumed and incompentance is earned. When you are black incomprtane is assumed and competance is earned.
I think Chris rock had a expresssion, born a suspect.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 9:41 am | #
OK Scott, now I understand more clearly what you meant, but, my experience doesn't bear out that analysis. I managed and was managed by both Black and White men and women and I didn't see what you describe. I did see "individual" attitudes that, had the "Institution" been complicit, could have fostered what you describe, but for the most part it was not pervasive institutionally and was not, in my organization at least, tolerated or accpted. Sorry that you've had the opposite experience. Thanks for the clarification.
Jim | Email | 10.18.04 - 10:22 am | #
The fact of what you saw on personal bases, Jim, does not invalidate the truth of the proposition. Moreover, given that a good degree of your experience was in the public sector, which has minority hiring and promotion dictates, that cannot be used as a window into private sector racist practices which are not subject to government minority hiring laws. Furthermore, how do you know what these black people were making relative to other whites to summarize your conclusion of parity? Did you ask all of them?
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 12:30 pm | #
Just because you have not observed something…does not mean it’s not true. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That’s the mistake that too many white people make…they try to judge the world through the experience of their observations as if their life is a microcosm representative of the whole. If they cannot observe something as being true in regards to blacks, they are reluctant to accept the black version of events. It like police brutality and many whites resistance to believe that cops should be given the benefit of the doubt over blacks. When blacks say they get beat down and harassed and the police say they do not do such things, whites who cannot bare witness to the truth select to believe the white police officers. Why?
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 12:30 pm | #
"When you are white competance is assumed and incompentance is earned. When you are black incomprtane is assumed and competance is earned."
Scott, I can relate from the standpoint of being a short, blonde female, btdt! But let me act as a really quick shortened history lesson;
The first civil rights legislation was introduced in 1888, by Republicans.
The anti-Civil Rights folks were Democrats.
The person who signed Civil Rights into law was LBJ, who, when he was a senator, repeatedly voted AGAINST civil rights bills. It took Republicans nearly a century to finally get it signed!
That self-same LBJ was the "genius" behind the welfare state that has so devastated the black family. That, IMHO, was his "revenge" for being forced by the Republican congress into signing it!
See, you've been a Republican all along, but the MSM & public schooling kept you from realizing it!
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 2:40 pm | #
Not the old, we freed you so you should be loayal to us arguement!! Dagney T your position essentially states, Black men and women ar being ungrateful when we do not vote republican because they did so much for us in the past. However, it ignores that those Southern Democrats and the people that voted for them broke with the Democratic Party to form the Dixiecrats and after that monumental failure they all became Republicans and the south has been a Republican stronghold every since. Thus the people who opposed all that the old northern republicans supported are all Republicans today. This talk about Democrats of the past opposing civil rights and other freedoms for Black men and women is a codemnation of the white South and Southern wite people more than it is the Democratic Party.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 3:18 pm | #
It is a sad day when a Black man admit the injustices in the system and then say Black folk should have to work extra hard to overcome them and suck it up. ALthough Scott and other Negro-Cons admit the injustices in the system and the racism in the system they refuse to believe these things contribute to the current condition in Black communites all over America. Why should Black men and women have to exert any more energy than a white person to get ahead. This is what Black Introspection opposes and this is what you Scott accept and apoligize for. How sick it that.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 3:23 pm | #
Once again Paul Stree qoute sums up Scott whole post in a few words.
"The harsh material and structural-racist reality of American society interacts with timeworn, victim-blaming ruling-class explanations of poverty to play an ugly game on the nation’s most truly disadvantaged. They are expected to magically leap beyond their social-historical circumstances – to exercise an inordinately high degree of sound personal responsibility just to keep their heads above water – while others are structurally empowered to “pass Go and collect $2 million” without such exercise, and indeed to deepen the well of black disadvantage."
This is what scott is saying and it is trully sad that he believe Black folk should have to work harder than white folk just to stay afloat while they are structurally empowered.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 3:27 pm | #
Dagney, most blacks do not look at the name of the party, without mapping the type of white folks that comprise it. Black people (or should I say most black people) are smart enough to discern that our interest are best served understanding which party is supported the most by white racist. We are not bound by or to a superficial name or label...we just look for who the Klan supports...and go the opposite direction. Contrary to what whites allude...we aint stupid about our party affiliations.
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 3:31 pm | #
Yes as a group we are very stupid about our party affiliations.
Public housing doesn't increase your wealth. Calling gay marriage a civil rights issue trivializes what black people have gone through. Social secuirty is black men paying in and dying while white men collect.
Allowing teachers union control of our children's education has left them unable to compete in the global economy.
We as a group are very much voting against our interest.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 3:42 pm | #
Speak for yourself Scott, what makes YOU smarter than the average black person Scott? Them dumb...me smart...cave man talk coming from you...bro?
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 5:47 pm | #
It seems like Scott was giving hard evidence WHY he believes some blacks vote against their own interests.
Statistically, blacks die earlier than whites. IF we had partial privatization with SS, then blacks would collect more from the system than they do now, all else remaining status quo.
Wealthier people now have far more choice when it comes to their children's schools. Yet Democrats wish to deny poorer kids vouchers - while THEIR kids in DC attend private school. It makes sense to me that poorer folk (irrespective of color) would WANT vouchers so they'd have an easier time getting their kids into good schools.
I don't know why more blacks vote this way. But - it doesn't make sense to me, either.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 8:03 pm | #
Faheem - we have all sorts of civil rights laws today protecting at least many rights of blacks against racism.
Do you think that the laws are not being enforced well enough?
If you think for the most part that they are, then what do you think should be done about individual racism in the private sector? How can you police this - if it should be policed? What would you do to people who express racist beliefs - but do not act upon them?
To me, people like Scott and McWhorter are saying, "We cannot stop the haters for hating. Let's do an excellent job and try to ignore them as best we can."
Did I get it right, Scott?
What is YOUR solution, Faheem, for blacks today dealing with the racism of individuals?
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 8:05 pm | #
Allowing teachers union control of our children's education has left them unable to compete in the global economy.
Parents have no control over the unions. That's the politicans involved. And even when Republicans have controlled things, they don't do anything about teacher's unions either.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 8:06 pm | #
But - it doesn't make sense to me, either.
It doesn't make sense to me to vote for people who go out of their way to avoid addressing you.
Faye Anderson was the vice-chair of the GOP outreach effort. She quit because she didn't believe that Republicans were serious about going after the Black vote.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 9:56 pm | #
But - it doesn't make sense to me, either.
When the GOP took control of congress, the first act of the GOP was to get rid of tax breaks for media owners who sold to Blacks.
Gingrich wanted to cut funding of the EEOC. When too much cain was raised, he increased funding but forbid the EEOC to use "race testers."
"Race testing" is the practice of sending people to places to see the response to Blacks, whites, and others.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 10:00 pm | #
But - it doesn't make sense to me, either.
It doesn't make sense to me that people blame Blacks for the success of the Southern Strategy.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 10:01 pm | #
Peg K...I think that if you ask most black folk...they would rahter have you figure out a way to get them to live longer...rather than figure out a way to get them social security while they continue to die prematurely relative to their white counterparts. I do not see any conservative platform that addresses blacks expiring prematurely...Universal Health care would certainly help....but what party is most against that?
Peg K..that just shows how little you know about black folks and what we really need...which is to LIVE/
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 10:58 pm | #
Noah - of COURSE it would be better if blacks had parity with whites for death rates!!! We can argue about WHY there is a disparity - but you will get no argument from me that the existence of this disparity is bad.
Still - in many ways, I would think that blacks would want partial privatization. Let's assume that there WAS identical death rates. With partial privatization, when someone dies, their heirs would be able to get something; it would be easier for those of modest incomes to leave something to their families.
The way the system is now, unless you have minors, when you die, your SS benefits essentially end.
Partial privatization would be a boon to those who are NOT wealthy - again, irrespective of color.
B.T.W. - are blacks against getting better educations, too, Noah? Seems to me that vouchers are worth at least the experiment to see if they help with this.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 11:47 pm | #
Dark Star - hate to break this to you - but WE vote for the politicians. If we want to change the system, we need to vote in politicians who will do it.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 11:48 pm | #
Privitization turns an entitlement into an investment gamble. What would happen if the stock marke crashed and people had their SS tied upon into it. The future of the stock market is not likely to be as bright as its recent past.
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 12:00 am | #
Noah - I would never support TOTAL privatization for SS; only a small portion.
And I would have controls on what types of investments people could use. But - over the long haul, investing in stable stocks and bonds has paid WAY WAY more to people than the miniscule return from social security.
Plus - people could opt to have NO partial privatization in their account, if they wished to go with the "old" ways. At least - give people the option!
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 12:35 am | #
Peg, I do not think the laws today address the racism of today. in fact many of the laws today are racist and conceived by racist.
I believe I wrote on your blog or maybe it was mine that individual racism has never been a problem for Black men and women, we do not care if white men and women hates us, we are only concern when men and women who hold these beliefs are in positions to do things that have an adverse affect on us.
To me people like Scott and Mcwhorther are weak and this is why people like you meaning white people like them. They accept white racism and say Black people just need to work harder to get pass it, and then act like we start problems when we point it out. Men and like Scott and Mcwhorter are scared and becauseo of their fear they have chosen to identify with those whom they fear.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 2:54 am | #
I do not have a solution for individual white racist except hopes that they commit suicide. As a white person maybe you should address it, more than likely you witness as much as I do. I am more concerned with racism in politics, media, banking, education, home loans, policing, health care, economics, housing, movies, music, entertainment etc.. and because of that I write and am an activist to educate Black men and women and refute garbage espoused by those in opposition to the self determination of the Black man and woman and those who wish to fight against the redress deserved for our suffering during our enslavement and since chattel slavery was so-called abolished.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 3:11 am | #
Dark Star - hate to break this to you - but WE vote for the politicians. If we want to change the system, we need to vote in politicians who will do it.
Riddle me this, Peg. Why do teachers unions still rule education in Republican strong holds?
Care to address The Southern Strategy?
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 9:05 am | #
Faheem, I said no such thing. I merely pointed out historical truth that has been purposefully omitted from American consciousness, with the purpose of furthering the left's preferred portrayal of republicans as historically "bigots, racists, homophobes", which is ridiculous, but one pushed by MSM and schooling furthers it by making JFK & LBJ the champions of the downtrodden, when just the opposite is true.
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 9:35 am | #
Faheem - what do you think would constitute "proper redress"?
I do not see lots of racism directly. I imagine it is because I try hard not to associate with people who do this - but, I do see it sometimes with non-friends.
I agree with you that institutional racism should be addressed and changed - though my guess is that you and I would not be completely in agreement as to where it exists. This administration is making strong moves to promote minority home ownership, help in getting loans, etc.
Music? Entertainment? Geeesh. There are more than a few blacks in these fields who are wealthy and successful - and whites who try to imitate them! Sorry; do not see the institutional racism there.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 11:35 pm | #
There is significant need among those who talk about political ideology, and those who STUDY political ideology to dig a lot deeper into conservatism. Believing in personal work and responsibility is not conservative. It has been co-opted by self-labelled conservatives...but I don't know a single progressive that believes we should all be lazy. Do you realize how much work goes into organizing a Wal-mart? Into fighting against corrupt public housing officials?
Lester Spence | Email | Homepage | 10.20.04 - 10:39 pm | #
Redress can be accomplished by following the right steps of atonement I wrote about on Black Introspection.
If that does not work, redress can be accomplished by given Black men and women autonomy or sovereignty in what ever part of this country we can agree on. If we are to work towards a solution, we would first have to agree on the problem, once we agree as to what causes the problem we can work on the solution. The arrogance of white folk is what trully preventing America from being the greatest empire there ever was or could be. By making things right with Black men and women and then having us possibly embrace America as our own, who could stop a trully United States of America. This country has yet to trully experience all that Black men and women can offer mostly because white folk can not get pass their hatred and belief in white supremcay.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.21.04 - 12:18 am | #
FAHEEM,
Let's see if PEG has the fortitude to respond to what you said. Let's see if she can get pass her presumed White Supremacy and, after asking, actually take note of the immutable "redress" you mentioned by way of AUTONOMY.
Let's see if her pretense of agreeing and acknowledging "institutional racism" can assimilate/accomodate such a fundamental principle as AUTONOMY.
My bet, since it hasn't occurred to her on her own, that she will not be so into dialoguing any more. She will be taken aback and, I doubt she will acknowledge the undeniable truth of it. It's the White Supremacy I bet she can't get past herself, despite all her allusions to the contrary.
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:18 am | #
How 'bout PEG?
What do you have to say that will forward the conversation on those terms and what role do you see for you and Whites is exacting that type of "redress"?
Or do you see racism as Black people problem and you (and Whites, generally) with no obligation to do much of anything about it because you would "rather just stay away" from all that - when you profess to be against it in its institutional, systematic and structural forms?
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:18 am | #
SCOTT...
You really need to come off of the Talking Points Caffine.
"We don't reject the civil rights movement or its successes, we reject the ignorant view that expects the government to fix our problem."
Substantiate especially how the brothers at Black Introspection has this exact expectation for the "government to fix our problems" and how they, me, we have said that the government and the government alone is responsible or obligated to "fix" our problems.
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:31 am | #
Seeing as how you can't do that... you are officially exposed as a FRAUD!! Making aSSertions that you can in no wise prove to be true in exactly the way you detail them.
And, for once in your life, be consistent and less hypocritical. If you believe that Reparations are due and warranted then you too believe (properly put) that the government has a role in addressing problems THAT IT SANCTIONED, PERPETUATED and PERPETRATED.
Now, considering that, show how you view on that is any different from those on Black Introspection.
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:31 am | #
At best SCOTT, you are quibbling over philosophical semantics. Exaggerating to idiotic extremes by highlighting a different point of emphasis of those at Black Introspection, etc. (who hardly represent the "traditional" Civil Rights Leadership or "liberal" views... especially since you're so keen on subtle distinctions) as if it represents an absolute neglect or absence of careful consideration and advocacy of what you deem important.
The ideological/philosophical tradition NOAH, FAHEEM and myself come from has self-help and self-reliance as cardinal principles and permanently fixed objectives. Marcus Garvey, Malcolm X, the NOI etc. are the functional luminaries of the undeniable "personal responsibility" that comprises our views.
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:43 am | #
No one with an intellect worth the cyber-space in this Blog would so carelessly associate those figures (and their particular ideas on self-reliance) as something attached to the Traditional Civil Rights Leadership for sure and hardly with the weak White political left
That tradition has always been diametrically opposed (or rather always had countering critiques) to accomodationist in whatever form up to and including your neo-Booker T. style (bankrupted style... because you suckers can't hold Booker T's cremated jock) and the civil rights leadership.
Juvenile, BUSH LEAGUE logic SCOTT...
That's what that hyperbolic tactic amounts to. Misrepresenting the views of others and labeling them merely because you don't here your own anal echo in the tone and style of elaboration/expression doesn't help your feably arrived at and contradictory position.
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:44 am | #
The difference between the conservative brootherhood and black introspection is that you use the uneven playing field as an excuse to fail. And excuse to be poor, and excuse to not have strong families.
We don't accept excuses.
Nor are we holding out breath waiting for our reparation check, we are each day going to work, and voting for policies that will help us, and we a resisting the tempation to fight racism with racism which is what you guys do on a regular basis.
Oh yea, and I love my country flaws an all.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.21.04 - 2:01 am | #
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 9:08 am | #
Until you walk in someone shoes, you cannot judge them in such a way that places yourself as being superior to them, by virtue of making different choices. I have never cheated on my wife in the two years that I have been married or the 8 years that we dated. However, for me to past judgment on Magic Johnson or Micheal Jordan is a false comparison. One, I would not be criticizing their behavior if I were guilty of it myself. That is a human proclivity to exalt oneself by virtue of juxtaposing their behavior with someone whose behavior is inferior, to make themselves look good in the comparison. Two, the temptations and opportunities for those two brothers to commit infidelity was to such a degree that I cannot say with certainty that I would not have succumbed either…because lord knows I love black women and would have them all if not constrained by love and morality.
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 9:08 am | #
Until you walk in someone shoes, you cannot judge them in such a way that places yourself as being superior to them, by virtue of making different choices. I have never cheated on my wife in the two years that I have been married or the 8 years that we dated. However, for me to past judgment on Magic Johnson or Micheal Jordan is a false comparison. One, I would not be criticizing their behavior if I were guilty of it myself. That is a human proclivity to exalt oneself by virtue of juxtaposing their behavior with someone whose behavior is inferior, to make themselves look good in the comparison. Two, the temptations and opportunities for those two brothers to commit infidelity was to such a degree that I cannot say with certainty that I would not have succumbed either…because lord knows I love black women and would have them all if not constrained by love and morality.
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 9:09 am | #
If you want a society that holds people responsible, you start by setting the example of a responsible government. It was the government that passed laws to keep black people oppressed for over 300 years. If the government cannot be responsible for its transgressions, than it is setting a bad example for the public to follow. Also, you cannot have a government that promotes preemptive violence against other nations, credibly locking up youths who engage in the same thing on our nations streets. The only difference being that there is an entity more powerful to hold them accountable and responsible, while no entity is strong enough to hold our nation responsible and accountable and it will not punish itself for its transgressions.
Dang this HaloScan...
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 9:10 am | #
You can also comment using the blogger commenting interface if you prefer it.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 10:13 am | #
I have always believed in hard work and personal responsibility. And that is the core of the black conservatism.
Now that's just plain silly.
By that standard, Sean Combs and Russell Simmons are Black conservatives.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 12:11 pm | #
Dark Star - you may be correct that for many, whether liberal or conservative, that hard work is valued and practiced. I think, however, that it is quite true that conservatives hold personal responsibility to be a key component of their world view far, far more than most liberals.
Conservatives think that a person ought to live their lives by a number of different principles - and that if they do, then their life rates to be good. But - no guarantees. Sometimes the best laid plans, yada yada yada. In those trying circumstances, the conservative tries to get help from friends, family, prior resources, or works even harder still.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 1:55 pm | #
The liberal, however, thinks that the government should be the ultimate safety net. Whether it's an issue of health care, housing, out of work - whatever - they believe that it is the role of the government to step in and make things right.
Highlighting personal responsibility is clearly a dividing line for conservatives and liberals. (Only other caveat - I don't see that race enters into this distinction at all.)
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 1:55 pm | #
"Sean Combs and Russell Simmons are Black conservatives." They are conservatives, Sean Combs even refuses to endorse one party over another.
If it wasn't for the 2000 stolen election I suspect they amoung others would have endored Bush but they make their money from the black community and they can't divert so far yet.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 2:56 pm | #
but they make their money from the black community and they can't divert so far yet.
OK, that's another silly comment.
1. They make more from whites than Blacks if you consider their music business as being the majority share of their income.
2. The "comedianne" Sommore(sp?) goes on Tom Joyner's show on a regular basis and lets it be known she is a Republican and that she supports Bush. Blacks still go to see her.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 4:37 pm | #
Scott, do you still believe the 2000 election was stolen?
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 5:12 pm | #
Yes I do.
But I got over it. One of the reasons I have abandoned the democratic party is the Gore first didn't stand up for us when he brought his case to the supreme court and the democrats didn't put any fights to protect our rights.
So I find the democrats as complict as the cops in harlem that refuse to do their jobs and arrest the drug dealers that sit on every corner.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 6:21 pm | #
I have abandoned the democratic party is the Gore first didn't stand up for us when he brought his case to the supreme court and the democrats didn't put any fights to protect our rights.
I'll agree some what with that.
Gore hosed Blacks when not one was considered for the VP spot. The CBC showed, again, they are spineless when they decided to speak up past the point of no return for Gore.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 9:51 pm | #
I read with some consternation the comments about the last Presidendial Election having been stolen. Although that is a well rehearsed Democratic canard, it is not at all true. Several very liberal newspaper organizations did very thorough investigations, including the New York Times, and found that the election was indeed not stolen. Also, though you won't read this in the liberal press, 24 of the 25 districts where there were problems with counting votes, they were run and controlled by the Democratic Party. So, in order to believe the election was stolen, you would have to believe that those Democrats in charge of the election process in those 25 districts conspired to throw the election to GW. Didn't happen. Anyway, I enjoy the discussions on your site, keep up the good work.
Jim | Email | 10.18.04 - 7:04 am | #
"suck it up when you work harder and get less than your white co-workers"
I may be showing some ignorance in this regard, and am willing to be enlightened, but I don't understand this comment, at least in light of my own experience. I worked in the public sector, law enforcement, and worked with a fair number of black men and women. We worked the same hours, did the same jobs, took the same risks, were promoted and retired on the same pensions; we received the same hourly pay and the same benefits....I guess I could go on, but you get the point. Before I worked in the public sector I worked at a large aircraft plant and the same applied there; prior to that, I was in the Air Force and the same applied there. I'm not looking to argue, but I guess I'm just not seeing something or your comment is more emotional than realistic... I couldn't agree more with the thrust of your post, the importance of persoanl responsibility. Help me understand what you meant by that comment.
Jim | Email | 10.18.04 - 7:20 am | #
Jim as you pointed out the democrats were not doing their job in making sure the election was fair and accurate.
There were signigficant reports of harasment in black neighboorhoods so people couldn't get to the voting boths, there were significant number who were mistakenly marked as felons. These are serious issues that have been blamed on the republicans thus the stolen election charge (in the black community). In the white community when they say stolen election they mean what you have discussed, which is the hanging chad nonsence and the bad ballots.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 9:23 am | #
Jim to clarify "suck it up when you work harder and get less than your white co-workers".
I have seen it so often its sad.
I had a detailed example but I felt that is was too private to relate. Lets just say in any situation where judgement is allowed (i.e. non union contracts where everything is spelled out) whenever a black person performs better its because the job was easier, never because they just did a better job.
If something goes wrong its always them, it couldn't have been bad instruction from their managers. But if its a black manager with white employee then its the managers fault.
Its pervasive like water to a fish.
If you don't accept it you just become the surly black employee.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 9:40 am | #
Did you ever know a few of them who just seemed pissed off all the time for no good reason. Or you might have seen the opposite the overly laid back employee who is doing their best to pretend the thousands of small slights don't matter.
One reason black employees are loyal is because it takes SO long to be accepted into any enviroment as an equal that its not worth changing to another environment for more pay where it will take you twice as long to get the respect you deserve.
When you are white competance is assumed and incompentance is earned. When you are black incomprtane is assumed and competance is earned.
I think Chris rock had a expresssion, born a suspect.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 9:41 am | #
OK Scott, now I understand more clearly what you meant, but, my experience doesn't bear out that analysis. I managed and was managed by both Black and White men and women and I didn't see what you describe. I did see "individual" attitudes that, had the "Institution" been complicit, could have fostered what you describe, but for the most part it was not pervasive institutionally and was not, in my organization at least, tolerated or accpted. Sorry that you've had the opposite experience. Thanks for the clarification.
Jim | Email | 10.18.04 - 10:22 am | #
The fact of what you saw on personal bases, Jim, does not invalidate the truth of the proposition. Moreover, given that a good degree of your experience was in the public sector, which has minority hiring and promotion dictates, that cannot be used as a window into private sector racist practices which are not subject to government minority hiring laws. Furthermore, how do you know what these black people were making relative to other whites to summarize your conclusion of parity? Did you ask all of them?
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 12:30 pm | #
Just because you have not observed something…does not mean it’s not true. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That’s the mistake that too many white people make…they try to judge the world through the experience of their observations as if their life is a microcosm representative of the whole. If they cannot observe something as being true in regards to blacks, they are reluctant to accept the black version of events. It like police brutality and many whites resistance to believe that cops should be given the benefit of the doubt over blacks. When blacks say they get beat down and harassed and the police say they do not do such things, whites who cannot bare witness to the truth select to believe the white police officers. Why?
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 12:30 pm | #
"When you are white competance is assumed and incompentance is earned. When you are black incomprtane is assumed and competance is earned."
Scott, I can relate from the standpoint of being a short, blonde female, btdt! But let me act as a really quick shortened history lesson;
The first civil rights legislation was introduced in 1888, by Republicans.
The anti-Civil Rights folks were Democrats.
The person who signed Civil Rights into law was LBJ, who, when he was a senator, repeatedly voted AGAINST civil rights bills. It took Republicans nearly a century to finally get it signed!
That self-same LBJ was the "genius" behind the welfare state that has so devastated the black family. That, IMHO, was his "revenge" for being forced by the Republican congress into signing it!
See, you've been a Republican all along, but the MSM & public schooling kept you from realizing it!
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 2:40 pm | #
Not the old, we freed you so you should be loayal to us arguement!! Dagney T your position essentially states, Black men and women ar being ungrateful when we do not vote republican because they did so much for us in the past. However, it ignores that those Southern Democrats and the people that voted for them broke with the Democratic Party to form the Dixiecrats and after that monumental failure they all became Republicans and the south has been a Republican stronghold every since. Thus the people who opposed all that the old northern republicans supported are all Republicans today. This talk about Democrats of the past opposing civil rights and other freedoms for Black men and women is a codemnation of the white South and Southern wite people more than it is the Democratic Party.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 3:18 pm | #
It is a sad day when a Black man admit the injustices in the system and then say Black folk should have to work extra hard to overcome them and suck it up. ALthough Scott and other Negro-Cons admit the injustices in the system and the racism in the system they refuse to believe these things contribute to the current condition in Black communites all over America. Why should Black men and women have to exert any more energy than a white person to get ahead. This is what Black Introspection opposes and this is what you Scott accept and apoligize for. How sick it that.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 3:23 pm | #
Once again Paul Stree qoute sums up Scott whole post in a few words.
"The harsh material and structural-racist reality of American society interacts with timeworn, victim-blaming ruling-class explanations of poverty to play an ugly game on the nation’s most truly disadvantaged. They are expected to magically leap beyond their social-historical circumstances – to exercise an inordinately high degree of sound personal responsibility just to keep their heads above water – while others are structurally empowered to “pass Go and collect $2 million” without such exercise, and indeed to deepen the well of black disadvantage."
This is what scott is saying and it is trully sad that he believe Black folk should have to work harder than white folk just to stay afloat while they are structurally empowered.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 3:27 pm | #
Dagney, most blacks do not look at the name of the party, without mapping the type of white folks that comprise it. Black people (or should I say most black people) are smart enough to discern that our interest are best served understanding which party is supported the most by white racist. We are not bound by or to a superficial name or label...we just look for who the Klan supports...and go the opposite direction. Contrary to what whites allude...we aint stupid about our party affiliations.
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 3:31 pm | #
Yes as a group we are very stupid about our party affiliations.
Public housing doesn't increase your wealth. Calling gay marriage a civil rights issue trivializes what black people have gone through. Social secuirty is black men paying in and dying while white men collect.
Allowing teachers union control of our children's education has left them unable to compete in the global economy.
We as a group are very much voting against our interest.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 3:42 pm | #
Speak for yourself Scott, what makes YOU smarter than the average black person Scott? Them dumb...me smart...cave man talk coming from you...bro?
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 5:47 pm | #
It seems like Scott was giving hard evidence WHY he believes some blacks vote against their own interests.
Statistically, blacks die earlier than whites. IF we had partial privatization with SS, then blacks would collect more from the system than they do now, all else remaining status quo.
Wealthier people now have far more choice when it comes to their children's schools. Yet Democrats wish to deny poorer kids vouchers - while THEIR kids in DC attend private school. It makes sense to me that poorer folk (irrespective of color) would WANT vouchers so they'd have an easier time getting their kids into good schools.
I don't know why more blacks vote this way. But - it doesn't make sense to me, either.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 8:03 pm | #
Faheem - we have all sorts of civil rights laws today protecting at least many rights of blacks against racism.
Do you think that the laws are not being enforced well enough?
If you think for the most part that they are, then what do you think should be done about individual racism in the private sector? How can you police this - if it should be policed? What would you do to people who express racist beliefs - but do not act upon them?
To me, people like Scott and McWhorter are saying, "We cannot stop the haters for hating. Let's do an excellent job and try to ignore them as best we can."
Did I get it right, Scott?
What is YOUR solution, Faheem, for blacks today dealing with the racism of individuals?
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 8:05 pm | #
Allowing teachers union control of our children's education has left them unable to compete in the global economy.
Parents have no control over the unions. That's the politicans involved. And even when Republicans have controlled things, they don't do anything about teacher's unions either.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 8:06 pm | #
But - it doesn't make sense to me, either.
It doesn't make sense to me to vote for people who go out of their way to avoid addressing you.
Faye Anderson was the vice-chair of the GOP outreach effort. She quit because she didn't believe that Republicans were serious about going after the Black vote.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 9:56 pm | #
But - it doesn't make sense to me, either.
When the GOP took control of congress, the first act of the GOP was to get rid of tax breaks for media owners who sold to Blacks.
Gingrich wanted to cut funding of the EEOC. When too much cain was raised, he increased funding but forbid the EEOC to use "race testers."
"Race testing" is the practice of sending people to places to see the response to Blacks, whites, and others.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 10:00 pm | #
But - it doesn't make sense to me, either.
It doesn't make sense to me that people blame Blacks for the success of the Southern Strategy.
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 10:01 pm | #
Peg K...I think that if you ask most black folk...they would rahter have you figure out a way to get them to live longer...rather than figure out a way to get them social security while they continue to die prematurely relative to their white counterparts. I do not see any conservative platform that addresses blacks expiring prematurely...Universal Health care would certainly help....but what party is most against that?
Peg K..that just shows how little you know about black folks and what we really need...which is to LIVE/
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 10:58 pm | #
Noah - of COURSE it would be better if blacks had parity with whites for death rates!!! We can argue about WHY there is a disparity - but you will get no argument from me that the existence of this disparity is bad.
Still - in many ways, I would think that blacks would want partial privatization. Let's assume that there WAS identical death rates. With partial privatization, when someone dies, their heirs would be able to get something; it would be easier for those of modest incomes to leave something to their families.
The way the system is now, unless you have minors, when you die, your SS benefits essentially end.
Partial privatization would be a boon to those who are NOT wealthy - again, irrespective of color.
B.T.W. - are blacks against getting better educations, too, Noah? Seems to me that vouchers are worth at least the experiment to see if they help with this.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 11:47 pm | #
Dark Star - hate to break this to you - but WE vote for the politicians. If we want to change the system, we need to vote in politicians who will do it.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.18.04 - 11:48 pm | #
Privitization turns an entitlement into an investment gamble. What would happen if the stock marke crashed and people had their SS tied upon into it. The future of the stock market is not likely to be as bright as its recent past.
Noah TA | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 12:00 am | #
Noah - I would never support TOTAL privatization for SS; only a small portion.
And I would have controls on what types of investments people could use. But - over the long haul, investing in stable stocks and bonds has paid WAY WAY more to people than the miniscule return from social security.
Plus - people could opt to have NO partial privatization in their account, if they wished to go with the "old" ways. At least - give people the option!
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 12:35 am | #
Peg, I do not think the laws today address the racism of today. in fact many of the laws today are racist and conceived by racist.
I believe I wrote on your blog or maybe it was mine that individual racism has never been a problem for Black men and women, we do not care if white men and women hates us, we are only concern when men and women who hold these beliefs are in positions to do things that have an adverse affect on us.
To me people like Scott and Mcwhorther are weak and this is why people like you meaning white people like them. They accept white racism and say Black people just need to work harder to get pass it, and then act like we start problems when we point it out. Men and like Scott and Mcwhorter are scared and becauseo of their fear they have chosen to identify with those whom they fear.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 2:54 am | #
I do not have a solution for individual white racist except hopes that they commit suicide. As a white person maybe you should address it, more than likely you witness as much as I do. I am more concerned with racism in politics, media, banking, education, home loans, policing, health care, economics, housing, movies, music, entertainment etc.. and because of that I write and am an activist to educate Black men and women and refute garbage espoused by those in opposition to the self determination of the Black man and woman and those who wish to fight against the redress deserved for our suffering during our enslavement and since chattel slavery was so-called abolished.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 3:11 am | #
Dark Star - hate to break this to you - but WE vote for the politicians. If we want to change the system, we need to vote in politicians who will do it.
Riddle me this, Peg. Why do teachers unions still rule education in Republican strong holds?
Care to address The Southern Strategy?
DarkStar | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 9:05 am | #
Faheem, I said no such thing. I merely pointed out historical truth that has been purposefully omitted from American consciousness, with the purpose of furthering the left's preferred portrayal of republicans as historically "bigots, racists, homophobes", which is ridiculous, but one pushed by MSM and schooling furthers it by making JFK & LBJ the champions of the downtrodden, when just the opposite is true.
DagneyT | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 9:35 am | #
Faheem - what do you think would constitute "proper redress"?
I do not see lots of racism directly. I imagine it is because I try hard not to associate with people who do this - but, I do see it sometimes with non-friends.
I agree with you that institutional racism should be addressed and changed - though my guess is that you and I would not be completely in agreement as to where it exists. This administration is making strong moves to promote minority home ownership, help in getting loans, etc.
Music? Entertainment? Geeesh. There are more than a few blacks in these fields who are wealthy and successful - and whites who try to imitate them! Sorry; do not see the institutional racism there.
Peg K | Email | Homepage | 10.19.04 - 11:35 pm | #
There is significant need among those who talk about political ideology, and those who STUDY political ideology to dig a lot deeper into conservatism. Believing in personal work and responsibility is not conservative. It has been co-opted by self-labelled conservatives...but I don't know a single progressive that believes we should all be lazy. Do you realize how much work goes into organizing a Wal-mart? Into fighting against corrupt public housing officials?
Lester Spence | Email | Homepage | 10.20.04 - 10:39 pm | #
Redress can be accomplished by following the right steps of atonement I wrote about on Black Introspection.
If that does not work, redress can be accomplished by given Black men and women autonomy or sovereignty in what ever part of this country we can agree on. If we are to work towards a solution, we would first have to agree on the problem, once we agree as to what causes the problem we can work on the solution. The arrogance of white folk is what trully preventing America from being the greatest empire there ever was or could be. By making things right with Black men and women and then having us possibly embrace America as our own, who could stop a trully United States of America. This country has yet to trully experience all that Black men and women can offer mostly because white folk can not get pass their hatred and belief in white supremcay.
Faheem | Email | Homepage | 10.21.04 - 12:18 am | #
FAHEEM,
Let's see if PEG has the fortitude to respond to what you said. Let's see if she can get pass her presumed White Supremacy and, after asking, actually take note of the immutable "redress" you mentioned by way of AUTONOMY.
Let's see if her pretense of agreeing and acknowledging "institutional racism" can assimilate/accomodate such a fundamental principle as AUTONOMY.
My bet, since it hasn't occurred to her on her own, that she will not be so into dialoguing any more. She will be taken aback and, I doubt she will acknowledge the undeniable truth of it. It's the White Supremacy I bet she can't get past herself, despite all her allusions to the contrary.
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:18 am | #
How 'bout PEG?
What do you have to say that will forward the conversation on those terms and what role do you see for you and Whites is exacting that type of "redress"?
Or do you see racism as Black people problem and you (and Whites, generally) with no obligation to do much of anything about it because you would "rather just stay away" from all that - when you profess to be against it in its institutional, systematic and structural forms?
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:18 am | #
SCOTT...
You really need to come off of the Talking Points Caffine.
"We don't reject the civil rights movement or its successes, we reject the ignorant view that expects the government to fix our problem."
Substantiate especially how the brothers at Black Introspection has this exact expectation for the "government to fix our problems" and how they, me, we have said that the government and the government alone is responsible or obligated to "fix" our problems.
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:31 am | #
Seeing as how you can't do that... you are officially exposed as a FRAUD!! Making aSSertions that you can in no wise prove to be true in exactly the way you detail them.
And, for once in your life, be consistent and less hypocritical. If you believe that Reparations are due and warranted then you too believe (properly put) that the government has a role in addressing problems THAT IT SANCTIONED, PERPETUATED and PERPETRATED.
Now, considering that, show how you view on that is any different from those on Black Introspection.
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:31 am | #
At best SCOTT, you are quibbling over philosophical semantics. Exaggerating to idiotic extremes by highlighting a different point of emphasis of those at Black Introspection, etc. (who hardly represent the "traditional" Civil Rights Leadership or "liberal" views... especially since you're so keen on subtle distinctions) as if it represents an absolute neglect or absence of careful consideration and advocacy of what you deem important.
The ideological/philosophical tradition NOAH, FAHEEM and myself come from has self-help and self-reliance as cardinal principles and permanently fixed objectives. Marcus Garvey, Malcolm X, the NOI etc. are the functional luminaries of the undeniable "personal responsibility" that comprises our views.
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:43 am | #
No one with an intellect worth the cyber-space in this Blog would so carelessly associate those figures (and their particular ideas on self-reliance) as something attached to the Traditional Civil Rights Leadership for sure and hardly with the weak White political left
That tradition has always been diametrically opposed (or rather always had countering critiques) to accomodationist in whatever form up to and including your neo-Booker T. style (bankrupted style... because you suckers can't hold Booker T's cremated jock) and the civil rights leadership.
Juvenile, BUSH LEAGUE logic SCOTT...
That's what that hyperbolic tactic amounts to. Misrepresenting the views of others and labeling them merely because you don't here your own anal echo in the tone and style of elaboration/expression doesn't help your feably arrived at and contradictory position.
Nmaginate | Email | 10.21.04 - 1:44 am | #
The difference between the conservative brootherhood and black introspection is that you use the uneven playing field as an excuse to fail. And excuse to be poor, and excuse to not have strong families.
We don't accept excuses.
Nor are we holding out breath waiting for our reparation check, we are each day going to work, and voting for policies that will help us, and we a resisting the tempation to fight racism with racism which is what you guys do on a regular basis.
Oh yea, and I love my country flaws an all.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.21.04 - 2:01 am | #
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: July 23, 2006 at 5:28 PM
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# posted by : July 23, 2006 at 5:28 PM
: July 23, 2006 at 5:28 PM
